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A comment about Suffix crafting...

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Normally, when we release a feature we don't go into a great amount of detail regarding how it works. We do this as a sort of trial by fire for our features. We can't assume everyone that plays Survived By is going to be an avid forum reader. These things need to be clear just from playing the game, and if they aren't we need to know that so we can fix it.

But, Suffix crafting is a little different. In particular, the numbers are more placeholder than usual. Crafting times and crafting costs run in parallel to item crafting, which I think is probably too long and too expensive. Still, I would love to get feedback from the community on this new feature, even if it's just to confirm that the cost/reward ratio isn't right yet.

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Suffix crafting is something that my friend and I still haven't worked out completely yet. We have picked up everything else in the game quite quickly; taking us but 4 hours of in-game time to figure out the basic monster shot patterns, general dungeon layouts, the crafting system, and even reaching level 25 and surpassing the tier 5 "mid-game" boss.

In general, crafting times are something that people are always going to be frustrated with and you will never be able to appeal to all of them. When it comes to high-tiered gear,  more serious and dedicated players will generally want you to have the crafting times and costs both to be extraordinarily high, while the laid-back community would prefer to have them easily obtainable and cheap. This is a common occurrence in all games, leading in negative feed back in any game that includes a crafting system, period. 

The only true answer I can give that is fair to both sides of this is really seeing how the economy is playing out and how much time is readily thrown into the game. Balancing a crafting system is only possible with a relatively balanced economy inside of a game. This will include a decent amount of currency sinks and methods to attempt to stop players from hoarding the available currency for themselves, while also ensuring a decent flow of money can be created for the community.

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Personally I kinda dislike this direction the game is heading. I am not sure if binding character progression to disposable items is a good thing in roguelite, perma-death games. It might works well at the T9 - T10 area, where the players are trying to min-max their builds, but I don't think this suits the pre-endgame content. Currently there is a big 'progression-wall' at the T5-T6 area, because the only reliable way to get stronger is collecting or crafting gear that is one tier higher, or upgrade the currently equipped lower level gear. While I like the former: finding loot, and equipping it to get a power spike is always fun, but if I have to spend time and resources on the lowel level gear, just to be able to survive the enemy hordes of the next tier, getting the next tier items is not a straight upgrade any more. In one hand you have your current, low tier set you worked on for quite long time, you upgraded, rerolled, leveled, socketed them, and in the other hand you have a set of higher level stuff that has higher innate stats, but no levels, no charms, no proper suffix combo and whatnot. Not even mentioning the fact that your items are not safe like other mmo-s with similar equipment-management. But you lose almost everything on death making your time invested into gear totally wasted.

I see only one benefit of this thing: You can stash the lower tiered, but highly upgraded gear in the vault and have it as a fallback if you die with the higher tier stuff equipped. But seeing the new crafting materials added to the game, it just means more clutter in your vault/inventory where the number of empty slots is scarce already.

I would like to have the gear system as simple as it could be, like: crafting stuff, having them as boss drops, and rerolling their pre/suffixes occasionally. And binding the 'alive character progression' to something else that is helping that character in any type and tier of content. Something like this: Charms are equippable on the character itself, you can add sockets and upgrade/socket the charms like you could before on items. You are still losing all of that when the character dies, but now if you equip a charm when doing T6 content, it will stay useful in any other areas you get in later on. You can freely upgrade your gear to the next tier, without losing the benefits of the charms and you will have a slow, but steady character-progression that will always benefit your character during its lifetime.

But this is just my opinion, maybe there is nothing wrong with the current system, and it is just me disliking it.

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On 11/15/2018 at 10:24 AM, GHmate said:

 Currently there is a big 'progression-wall' at the T5-T6 area, because the only reliable way to get stronger is collecting or crafting gear that is one tier higher, or upgrade the currently equipped lower level gear. .

Its not really a wall. The game just becomes More unforgiving. Dodging and using your energy smart etc becomes so much More important.

 

Me and my friend have multiple times ran new player experience runs, meaning we dont use our bank, or our legacies.

Our current record is getting full t8 set in 2h and 30mins with brand New fresh characters.

Its all about game knowledge and less about the gear. Recently we duod a t3 hardmode dungeon using only thorns gear. No relics and our legacys were lvl 1. So no real benefit there either.

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Ryan. Suffix crafting is not a issue, never was. It is perfectly clear.

Prefix crafting however is really unlcear.

 

Tons of New items (brändin) that there is no explanation how to use and where to use.

Do i need all of these items to upgrade 1 prefix level? Or just some? Which ones? 

 

If i need all items is It really worth? These New materials are SUPER expencive and we dont know the benefit of upgrading prefixes yet.

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15 hours ago, Rehtael said:

Okay, opening up SB again to poke around. I noticed we now live in the safe little village of New Text.

We fixed that up, it'll be gone in our next update :)

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Thank you for all of the great feedback, everyone! I've been moving all of it into our internal tracker. There's a lot of interesting stuff here, so I'll try and address each one!

@Skate - I agree that some of our more complex systems like Charms/Affixes/Suffixes could use a bit of a tutorial. This is something that I hope we will address in the future so that it's more accessible to new players. Naturally, there will be some things in a game that take a bit longer to pick up, but I think that there's more than we can do to reduce that friction and require less time and effort for players to understand. A balanced player economy is definitely key to a happy community, and I agree that Suffix crafting is no exception. A lot of the economy is player regulated through the auction house, but it might be worth us taking another look at costs/time sinks required.

@GHmate - I can understand, that totally makes sense. I think one way that we try to keep power persistent after death is through Ancestral Legacies - that gear is meant to come and go (unless it's in the vault!) but that Legacies and Valr are the most powerful, lasting ways to stay strong with each new character. It would be cool to have more gear that is account bound or otherwise protected. Right now, we have the Thorns gear which sticks around and reduces some of that friction. Maybe there are other ways that we can make that true for our gear. (Levelling it up to X means that it will earn one "life" and won't go away the first time you die with it, etc.) Let me know if you have ideas!

@Ssslither - Your point definitely adds additional weight to Skate's thoughts on making these systems more clear to the player. There is a wiki which may be helpful to you in the meantime (https://survivedby.gamepedia.com/Survived_By_Wiki) but it would be great to take another look at how we can reduce some uncertainty while keeping a careful balance of not over-explaining.

I'll see if Ryan is able to hop in with some of his thoughts as well!


 

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After reading Ssslither's answer about doing "new player experience runs" I realized that if it is possible to get to T8 in 2.5 hours without using high gear or legacies, then I am the one that needs to change and improve, not the game. Although he was describing these as duo runs, and that is a huge factor in my experience. Usually I can't find random players that are interested in the same content I am doing, but when I can, the progression feels way smoother. My previous comment was posted with solo-play in mind, even if this game is not meant to be played alone. At the end, I am sure, it is possible to clear the tiered content in solo mode in a reasonable time too, just not that ... fun, I guess?

About the item loss on death, it is a fair and simple mechanic, I am sorry if my post sounded like I am suggesting to change that. I didn't mean to.

My point was not about dying and losing an item, but about finding a higher tier item after you spent a lot of resources on your prevoius tier item.
Eg: have a random T6 weapon, find a random T7 weapon -> great, equip it and you are fine. Have a crafted, re-rolled, upgraded T6 item with great pre- and suffixes and high level charms socketed, then find a random T7 weapon -> not that great, because now all the resources and time spent on the T6 feels wasted. I would skip the whole gear-upgrading part until I get the reasonably high tier stuff that I know I will keep and use for a long time.
In short: I was not seeking more "persistent power" or "protected gear", but a kind of short-term upgrade (like/instead of the suffix crafting or charms) that is less affected by gear-switching, but also lost on death, like the gear. If it makes any sense now. I hope, because I can't explain it better. :)

And most importantly, this has nothing to do with the difficulty, the permanent and temporary power gain in the game feels alright.

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Sorry for being rude. But I love the way that Realm of the madgod do. They got Pet system - The only one that make your dead have value and stay alive as long as u can (Receive point for pet upgrade and It ‘s account bound). In Survival By now I don’t see any point for survival because I need to die to level up my Legacies, The Varl doesn’t binding ??? It good when the user can keep it like account bound, and more varl when u stay alive ( when all achivement done - no point to stay alive ). anyway i love pet system from ROTMG. Hope Survival By having the same hahaha

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Although the game has to progress in terms like crafting, I like the overall system. First, my experience so far has been positive. Yes, I got really mad when ripped like 20-30 times level 25 characters to unkown mechanics, lag, etc, etc. I think that this game teaches you every single scenario where you are either suited for it or not. Such as, insufficient gear, overrunning rooms, or overrating your character possibilities. Not long ago, I started hard dungeons and ripped two or three times. But, I started to understand the logic behind deaths and stopped getting mad.

As for the crafting system at the moment, I would fix the charm crafting. It still has a few bugs. Adding an unsocket option to the items would be cool too for saving charms.

What I still find unfinished are the imprints. Getting a decent imprint it´s really hard. Dismantling for imprints sometimes doesn´t get you anything (if not most of the times). There should be some kind of misc item for enhancing success probabilities when crafting. Also, more variety on imprints would be nice too. Like some kind of auras imprints for both buff and debuff; magic shieds and auto-triggered effects/spells for hp thresholds. These come to my mind. Hope this little ideas come useful for you guys. Love y´all.

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