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BreadSlice

Verdant Ooze - Rimuru Tempest In Disguise (and DOT DAMAGE BALANCE)

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The above title might be the nerdiest thing I have ever typed... I apologize.

I wanted to discuss some issues with the Verdant Ooze in T7.  @Twilight053 had two good posts highlighting the mob, but I wanted to start a new thread since those were a bit old.  Verdant Ooze is an often mentioned mob as being overtuned. Upon close inspection, he is actually unique in many regards, and I think quite a few are likely unintended.  He is a great case study in several issues with mob mechanics.

Below is gif which highlights many of the issues (The site wont let me post the gif directly, so the quality may end up being poor.  If anyone knows a better hosting site, please let me know!):

giphy.gif

 

1. When you step on the trail of goo laid by the ooze (puddles), it does not dissipate on impact.  You can step on it multiple times, or worse stand on it, and take damage several times.  I believe this behavior is different than the "ice puddles" from Anima?  in T4 and the "splatter" from the orange ball creatures in T5.

2. When the mob is killed, the name plate remains in the death position of the original mob for the duration of 3 death explosion ooze.  A bit distracting, but if you look closely, this nameplate also changes to "GREATER Verdant Ooze".  This could be the culprit for 3.

3. The three puddles dropped by the mob on death do not disappear on contact and allow several damage events per impact, like the previous puddles. However, they do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage than anything else in the zone.  My hypothesis is the death "Greater Verdant Ooze" is actually the wrong mob and should be using a normal "Verdant Ooze".

4. These puddles can easily blend in with the background.  They should either have some highlighting or a color change (or both). Not shown, they can also be completely hidden if they land in the foreground "canopy" areas in T7.

5. All of these puddle effects do DOT damage. Dot damage is the Verdant Ooze true tool of death.  There should probably be a separate thread about dot damage AND endurance in general, but I'll highlight Dot damage here. The interaction with any dot damage and endurance is a bit wonky.  The current calculation of DOT damage takes each individual tick and compares it against the players endurance damage reduction.  If the players is above that threshold, they will take no damage OR 1 damage each tick for the duration (That seems to be another issue, some poison animation from the same source seem to be completely nullified like a ground effect, while others are reduced to 1 damage).  Even not taking damage, this is still a somewhat effective mechanic as it stops any regeneration from taking place.  The devastation happens if a player doesn't meet that threshold.  If they don't meet the cutoff, they will take the damage they were under that threshold by EVERY tick. This is brutally punishing.  It amplifies that damage taken by whatever the duration of the poison is.  

I ended up losing this character testing the poison mechanic (And no one was around to pay respects :( ). I tested the poison damage of the snakes in T8.  With my three endurance pieces on, I took no additional dot damage.  When I removed it, I took an approximate 200? damage initial hit, THEN, an additional 93 each tick until I died.  Because I was 93 under the endurance threshold, I took 93 additional damage EACH time. Lets pretend that it was 5 ticks.  That's 465 unavoidable damage on top of the 200 damage of the initial hit for a total of 665 damage, when all other damage sources in the area will be in line with 200 (The initial damage is pretty important for comparison, but I can't remember it. It was not in the 400's).   The penalty for being below a certain amount of endurance in particular areas of the game is insanely harsh.  I believe a possible solution would be the poison damage is be compared against the endurance ONCE, then that damage remaining should be divided by duration and that is what the tick value should be.

However, there are many other shortcomings with the static endurance damage reduction that I will likely highlight in other posts.

 

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DoT's used to be alot stronger. 

 

Good old days of having full t8 and Still dying to 1 poison projectile from t8 :D

 

Obviously they nerfed all dots, But oozes are Still extremely dangerous. And you might have found the reason why, "greater" mobs are t9 monsters. 

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Thanks for the info about DOTs. There are a few conclusions I'm jumping to because I didn't fully test after I panicked taking so much damage and died. I didn't expect my hunch about why dot damage never affected me to be right. I probably should have made it a separate post because it is more speculative on my part than the rest, and a potentially broader design issue.

I knew I use to take a lot more DOT damage but had been practically taking none now, so I suddenly thought it could be working like ground effects, having endurance nullify the ticks. I was right, endurance is a factor, but I never got to explore the threshold fully. It may not work like projectile damage and subtract each tick from endurance as I stated, but be an all or nothing below an endurance DR threshold.  It may be particularly generous in the players favor, only not exceeded by players extremely undergeared.

If it was determined dot damage was just too strong at some point, that could have been how it was quickly swept from causing headaches. Endurance can negate all of it and no reasonable geared player may ever see the damage. I have never professionally worked on a video game and may be missing some of the nuances, but that seems like an odd choice over simply scrapping the debuff, so I doubt that ratioanlization holds any water. However if true, the determination of reasonable may come into play right at the T7 power jump.

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This is the T5 orange ball splatter pattern I was referring to.

image.png.4f6b23bcee715e2d724a7e805785c248.png

And Here is the Ice Anima puddles:

image.png.2b80e9fbb73ac1934da333ae0cccbf7a.png

Both of these are destroyed after the player comes in contact with them.

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Via the wiki, I think this is the damage for the poison mob on the snakes that killed me:

image.png.a18999554068390c89e481f4eba06b5a.png

It is not clear how to interpret this DamageOverTime data. If it is adding 65 to 131 to come up with a total dot damage of 196 and we assume the character doesn't have any mitigation through endurance, and that it ticks once each second for the duration, each tick would be ~32.  I took 93 each tick, so that can't be what it is doing. For all numbers shown, any division over the duration is lower than what I experienced.

With no endurance gear/ mastery legacy, a Harbinger has 38 endurance damage reduction at 25. 38 from the total 196 would be more damage than I experienced.  However, 38 from the 131 is exactly 93, the damage number I saw per tick.  This leads me to believe that 131 is the DOT component, and it may add the DOT 131 damage and 65 for the initial projectile hit, as I do not see that value listed anywhere.  If it does hold true, it is easy to see why an unmitigated dot damage of 786 is pretty harsh compared to initial impacts of ~200. I'll need to check to see if I get hit for 196 damage by the initial shot while wearing no endurance gear to confirm.  Hopefully, I won't bite the dust this time... 

 

 

 

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The initial impact is 261 (and boy did I come close to dying, thanks health potions!)  Other projectiles in the area also do 261.  This would be the 131 DamageOverTime plus the constant 65 for the total DamageOverTime value of 196, then add the constant 65 again. (131 + 65) + 65 = 261.  It is also roughly the same as splitting the initial impact damage in half, then applying it for each tick. With no mitigation, 1047 total damage vs 261 total damage for other projectiles seems a little out of line.

I thought the initial impact of the bullet would do half the damage at 130, then the other 130 would be split up over the six duration ticks for ~22 damage each tick, for a total of 262 damage, very close to what other projectiles are doing.

With basic level 1 T8 gear, the Harbinger has 134 Endurance DR.  This value is subtracted against each tick, effectively negating all 786 dot damage and 134 from the initial impact, taking 1047 potential damage down to 127 total damage done.

 

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Posted (edited)

^ I'm also making the assumption 1 tick per second of duration, I'm too busy trying not to die to count the ticks.  My recording software failed me twice and I'm too chicken to try again, though I could try with more endurance now that I have a good handle on the numbers. (I wish it would let me edit posts again, I wouldn't have to make 25 more posts in a thread.)

Edited by BreadSlice

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