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Rehtael

Complaining Continued: Why I've been at a low-activity state.

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I was at one point much more active in the game, excited for its future, and while the latter remains true, my activity has diminished greatly, and due to one singular aspect I've been nagging about for a while now.

The literally one-dimensional combat.

In a one-dimensional plane (the X axis for those whom it makes sense) you can only go in two directions. In this case, I am either using a basic attack, or using an ability. The bullet-hell-lite aspect is so lackluster at the moment that I don't view it as a factor, and enemy behavior is so basic that the approach to every single enemy is the same: Shoot them. Prioritizing targets isn't much of a thing to be totally honest. They all have a similar threat presence and very similar health pools. I ABSOLUTELY understand that changes to AI and enemy design take time, and I have the patience for these changes to take hold. However, the player attack options being so incredibly basic is what's holding it back.

I still remain interested in being an active member of the community, but the draw to SB is currently a fair deal lower than other titles right now. I do NOT want to see SB become Trove, which has a combat system entirely centered around three abilities and is a major grind-fest for things which should be more readily accessible in the first place, but that...

Image result for but that is a story for another day

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Posted (edited)

I agree that they should 

1) make AI much harder. More complex bullet patterns, faster reaction time for shooting real players, faster fire rate.

2) give players More abilitys, maybe in form of legacies, which would alter your special ability.

Example. Geomancer turrer count. More turrets. Less turrets.

Druid bear basic attacks, ability to have penta, or double helix, or long range richo, gives us options god damnit.

Sentinel aura size. I want an aura that is the size of t4 boss area. 

I also want an aura size of  6 tiles, so i can barely fit into It, But make It for example, reflect some bullets back. Maybe make this aura rectangle to make It easier to aim.

 

3) give bosses More Moves across the board.

I want oryx like moves, where there are different dodging phases, or anything But straight forward shotguns.

Edited by Ssslither
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Hey there Rehtael! I hear you, and I think the team would definitely agree with you. It's one of our goals as we continue to refine major systems that we'll choose a creature each week to remaster - so far we've worked on the Disabler and golem - but there are many left to tackle. As far as player behavior and abilities go, I think you'll be really pleased with our plans for ALs. You'll be able to customize your abilities, your attack patterns, and build a subclass through your Legacies. Applying or unequipping a Legacy will completely change your playstyle. But, evenimes will require a little extra thinking.

@ssslither came up with a few pretty good suggestions above - but if there are movement patterns that you feel are very successful in other games, or ways that you would like to see enemy movement change, that will give us a great frame of reference when we continue to make these updates.

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On 1/2/2019 at 11:02 AM, hh_katherine said:

@ssslither came up with a few pretty good suggestions above - but if there are movement patterns that you feel are very successful in other games, or ways that you would like to see enemy movement change, that will give us a great frame of reference when we continue to make these updates.

Had a fair bit on my plate over the last few days, but I'll go over some relative basic behavioral patterns which shouldn't be too hard to implement.

Whether you use the more excessive Time.deltaTime loop (Which I do because I'm still slightly crap at programming), or WaitForSeconds() with a  Mathf(Random.Range) for time delays, adding pauses to enemy attacks is critical. Right now what everything does is fire as soon as you're seen. Look at trends among Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon, and Nuclear Throne. Unless you're going for Hotline Miami levels of time to kill, enemies generally exhibit a pause that can be brief or long, similar to how games that have enemies with hitscan weapons always miss the first shot, otherwise you'd be dead VERY fast. The yeti-robots in Nuclear Throne have a VERY long pause to them, but only most of the time. Their sporadic and aggressive behavior lend to some very interesting combat. When they eventually DO attack, the lunge in at VERY high speeds, but take a moment to accelerate (Except when they feel like ending my daily runs a little early e_e) and can be slowed down by taking damage from weapons with some knockback. Which is good because they do a lot of damage and have a fair degree of health.

To reference Enter the Gungeon, the Blue Shell-Kin fire in predictable (But still dangerous) patterns, after a brief delay of being in line of sight. And when they die, they have a chance to fire out shots in multiple directions. I fucking HATE the crows in the scrapyard in Nuclear Throne, but they've been well designed for their purpose. I have yet to determine their exact parameters for when they choose to fly to a new position, but I believe that it's have a relatively fixed period of time, they will fly within X distance of the player, regardless of line of sight. Sometimes this means they escape, sometimes it means they ambush.

And in Gungeon, it's about two frames long, but the guns of the bullet kin play an about-to-fire animation. Even though it's THE most basic enemy in the game, its attack has a tell. An important part to adding actual fights to Survived By is just going to be making some enemies tankier. Being able to 2-3 shot everything results in fights having absolutely no threat presence, particularly due to the fact that projectiles disappear with their host. So rushing down enemies is ALWAYS the way to go, because if you can kill them before the shots reach you, then you were never in danger in the first place. Things just happen too fast right now. It's hard to build up any RPG elements and actually use them if offense is the only thing that really matters, and you have such a low TTK. Like I said with Hotline Miami. There's zero reason to EVER put in RPG elements because there's really nothing to expand upon besides the singular-trait masks. (Tony and Jake OP) Which ALSO comes down to speeding up the TTK to limit your exposure to enemies. Tony is killing punches and instant finishers, and Jake is killing throws, so even if you don't have ammo, having any weapon in your arms is a "safe" long-range kill.

I REALLY TRIED to play Infiltrator before the Open Beta "wipe" but constantly I found myself in a state of frustration because she (All of my characters are female, no one can tell me otherwise) couldn't do even remotely enough damage compared to Harbinger, whom I still main because... Well, she's OP. Why have to get in close to use an ability with limited range on top of its short flight path when I could just stay at a safe distance and pound enemies with an auto-lock shot? This is again due to the enemies we fight. The Harbinger playstyle is simply the most effective given the behavior of enemies and projectiles.

Also enemies don't interact with each other NEARLY enough. I have yet to find proof of this theory, but it feels strongly like the basic bandits in Nuclear Throne fire more frequently the more of them are nearby, like a sort-of confidence aspect. (No proof though, it just *feels* like it) and there are enemies in Gungeon which buff each other with damage and/or damage resistance. And enemy targeting priority would be a good plan. Say, some enemies will mainly target the player with the least health or something. That's about all I have to say for now, despite the fact that I could give some more concrete examples of actual designs,but I may do that at a different time.

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(no, I didn't return)
Survived By enemies are made for spawning in huge crowds and they commonly spawn in huge crowds. These crowds are quite dangerous. You can't 2-shot a crowd or fight at medium range with a crowd. But they don't do that always and nobody feels very impressed while fighting a single Disabler or a group of five *insert an ordinary enemy*.
You (HH) probably intend to give enemies complex patterns that place a lot of requirements on players' actions: enemy interaction, debuffs-one-shot-and-you-retreat/die, blocking projectiles, movement prediction, evading attacks, go-exactly-182.7°-or-you're-dead patterns, kill-this-one-first, teleports, blocking movement, high damage, fast bullets, lots are suggested and implemented,
Please don't make us fight crowds consisting of several groups of such enemies. I didn't download an online bullet-hell style rougelite game for endless boss fights or randomized 1v3 battles, but it's way better than 1v3bosses and 1v15 battles where the "15" are 5 times stronger than "1".

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9 minutes ago, Senyarik said:

You can't 2-shot a crowd or fight at medium range with a crowd.

Ricochet, Chain Reaction (I know ALs are changing soon, but you get my point), Harbinger alt fire. and of course some other bullet patterns have tendencies to deal with crowds (RIP Fragmenting BS)

To you I say, why have stats or RPG elements at all if you're just going to one-shot the majority of enemies you'll be fighting at-level?

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I've been trying to stick to the classes I like, but I think it's time for me to delete infiltrator, melt its penta weapon, and join the train. Harbinger is now my main. I just got beard geomancer too.

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