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paradoxofchoice

A warning about AL rework

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Posted (edited)

WARNING:
-reworks are pro/con by nature.
-positive changes to a class affect everyone, creating a new incentive to play that class or improving it for the people that already are.
-negative changes to a class only affect the people playing that class, but to a much greater degree.
-people are more likely to leave a negative review and ragequit over a negative change than a positive review and play longer from a positive change.
-almost everyone plays harbinger. reworking his special attack is a suicide mission regardless of how cool the rework is. reviews entering red almost guaranteed.
-deprecating level 50 legacies that people had to facegrind the well for an eternity to gain, and offering them 100/500 valr on consume is not okay.
-deprecating item prefixes that people are paying small fortunes to obtain is not ideal.
-reworks put stress on wiki, tutorials, guides, videos, etc. as well as damaging general game knowledge, meaning they are often better done in small batches.
-relic system makes class reworks especially hazardous, even for unpopular classes.
(Please consider creating a soulbound relic extraction item that can be used as compensation material for any class reworks.)

You are almost definitely better off stacking some new system on top of the existing ones rather than replacing anything people already like. Add new legacy stuff, fine. Delete a bunch in the process, not cool. Add a way to modify shot patterns for non-prefix weapons or augment existing ones, neat. Delete item prefixes people spent months to get, not cool. Buff alchemist or anything unpopular for the people that like it and for the people that don't. Add new subclasses for any new special abilities and leave anything popular or viable alone. Above all else, do not rework harbinger unless you want to implode. If that much is set in stone, you need to break the stone.

"RIOT will delete everything you ever loved."
Blizzard thought Cataclysm was a good idea.

I understand this is early access, but for some people that explanation isn't going to cut it if you suddenly invalidate half the game alongside their favorite class.
I don't have much info about the rework plans, but other than that, I actually know what I am talking about.


BONUS 👏 WARNING 👏
You have given out a few XP potions to everyone, which is great, but it also means that an abnormal amount of people are doing well runs right now (because honestly there is no other purpose to a 3 day XP potion than to just grind well runs with it). Based on the volume of people, I would say quite a few players have come out from dormancy to collect their XP potions and start playing again. Based on the number of people running alongside me in the T4 area, I would say many of them are doing well runs as a part of their return. If the AL rework is going to replace/deprecate any major legacy cards you need to be very good about the compensation for such a thing that is fresh on their mind. I recommend overcompensation, actually, since it can easily take millions of Valr to obtain the specific card you are looking for.

Losing something you earned sometime last year and got to use for several months is kinda lame but can be rationalized. Losing something you just got done grinding for several days to get with minimal compensation would be a kick in the teeth, especially if that thing was their reason for returning. So many people are doing well runs that the greater of two negative reactions may actually be the more common reaction in this scenario. Be very careful about that - the timing of the XP potions and the AL rework supposedly being some time this month is a precarious combination from my perspective.

Edited by paradoxofchoice
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Hi @paradoxofchoice - I can definitely see where you're coming from, any major rework can feel like a risk or a gamble compared to a "safe" existing system. That said, we wouldn't be doing the rework if we weren't confident that it would be a major improvement from our existing ALs. We based all of our incoming subclasses off of community-sourced ideas, and are reworking classes that are widely disliked (the druid) to match the feedback we've gotten so far. We will also make sure to compensate players for their deprecated cards as fairly as possible. Because so many changes are happening, it's likely that there will need to be at least a few changes made once it's released - so as always, we'll be looking for feedback on what should be changed and we'll be able to go from there.

Thank you for bringing this back to our attention, it's something we're being wary of but we always appreciate the reminder.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/2/2019 at 3:30 PM, paradoxofchoice said:

-relic system makes class reworks especially hazardous, even for unpopular classes.
(Please consider creating a soulbound relic extraction item that can be used as compensation material for any class reworks.)

I 100% support this. As someone who has used 2000+ relics on my druid already I'm really worried that the rework might affect the reason why I chose to play druid over the other classes. If druid becomes a class that dies easily then those 2000+ relics would be wasted as I wouldn't want to play druid anymore since the main reason I play druid is because  druid is tanky with proper legacies and therefore softens the blow when I'm lagging as I naturally am(not devs fault(sometimes) but my internet is just slow). However, if you gave us the option to rebind all of our relics to another character then my mind would be at peace. This can be a one-time thing and only for the purpose of the rework, the same way how in the game 'Path of Exile' refunds all skill points for free in a class' skill tree if they introduce a massive change/rework to a class; Only in Survived By's case, it's going to be the relics. I wouldn't mind grinding the well again to get the new AL cards but please consider the relic extraction just in case a player doesn't like the class he's 'maining' pre-AL rework patch.

12 hours ago, hh_katherine said:

We based all of our incoming subclasses off of community-sourced ideas, and are reworking classes that are widely disliked (the druid) to match the feedback we've gotten so far.

This quote right here is why I'm worried. I made druid work for me and my playstyle despite others saying they don't like/know how to play druid efficiently. Which goes full circle to what @paradoxofchoice mentioned earlier:
 

On 3/2/2019 at 3:30 PM, paradoxofchoice said:

-negative changes to a class only affect the people playing that class, but to a much greater degree.
-people are more likely to leave a negative review and ragequit over a negative change than a positive review and play longer from a positive change.

 

Edited by Zilch
typos
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Quick reminder that the AL rework will also come with a rework of the base special abilities for some classes and alternate special abilities for all classes, in addition to the complete overhaul of all existing Legacies - so it may be very difficult to compare our existing classes and their roles to what ALs may look like after the rework. The Druid is one that I guarantee will change - the charge attack was almost universally disliked once we switched over to it, so we want to move towards something that more players will enjoy. Of course, like the other classes, the Druid will have alt special abilities -- so if the new base doesn't fit your playstyle there will be other options too. We're planning on launching with one alt special per class and will quickly expand to 3 alt specials per class, making 4 total special abilities per class to choose from.

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Don't cling to a system that's busted just because people like parts of it. Let it go. Tear it up, build it anew, with new perspectives to adapt to the new landscape.

People liked Followup on Harbinger because it was OP. But it doesn't mean it's good for the game. People get upset when change happens, but that's fine. Anyone who can't cope with change either leaves the game now, or they'd have left the game later when some other change needed to happen. Players shed during this process are not the core audience. That said, these changes must still be to the benefit of the core experience.

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Posted (edited)

A game is far more likely to find it's 'core audience' during beta or EA if it has either of them.
The notion that something causing people to leave the game is not automatically a problem, is completely invalid.

People leave the game because lag spikes delete all their relics.
People leave the game because there are a million glitches.
People leave the game because updates add even more glitches.
People leave the game because updates degrade existing systems.
People leave the game because they think it's Pay to Win.
People leave the game because important features are disabled for months.
People leave the game because their friends already left the game.
People leave the game because of BAD NEGATIVE THINGS.

Then they also leave a negative review, and the next group of people do not even join the game because the reviews are bad.

Early Access is not an invincibility shield like many people are led to believe.
I'm not opposed to reworks, but they can go very wrong. [insert warning]
I don't think this concept is especially complicated.

Edited by paradoxofchoice

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3 hours ago, paradoxofchoice said:

People leave the game because there are a million glitches.

That is exaggerated but right now, I think there are fewer glitches not really that many which makes the game totally unplayable

 

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4 hours ago, Rehtael said:

Don't cling to a system that's busted just because people like parts of it. Let it go. Tear it up, build it anew, with new perspectives to adapt to the new landscape.

People liked Followup on Harbinger because it was OP. But it doesn't mean it's good for the game. People get upset when change happens, but that's fine. Anyone who can't cope with change either leaves the game now, or they'd have left the game later when some other change needed to happen. Players shed during this process are not the core audience. That said, these changes must still be to the benefit of the core experience.

I totally agree to this.

Remember that we are in early access and everything there is subject to change. What they musn't implement is the progress reset like what they did in the beta.

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I know change comes with a lot of uncertainty, but I'm definitely looking forward to seeing everyone's thoughts once the system has been released. I hope it exceeds expectations and is seen as a positive change, personally I feel that it's going to be a major improvement that addresses a lot of the concerns I've read on the forums. Mostly excited to start using ALs that have a much bigger impact on gameplay than our current system!

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I disagree with most of the original post. One specific point I want to talk about is the Harb. You say everyone plays him and changing would be a a terrible idea... Well the reason everyone plays him is because of how strong he is. It would be silly to play other characters when the Harb can auto target and slay all...... OF COURSE you should change this... People play the harb because it is unbalanced. That should be fixed. DOWN WITH THE HARBS.  Also... the "relic swap to a different character" seems a bit cheesy. I would rather people not be able to take their relics and just move them from character to character without any penalty. Then everyone will just swap into the "strongest class" without much work/effort.

But in reality... this isnt really important. The AL change is a HUGE change that will change the feel of the game and give it more depth. As of now, there arent many people actively playing the game. So WHY NOT change it for the better? Even if it hurts the progress of those that are playing, ( a hundred ish? ) It will benefit those that come in the future ( thousands? ).

As an SB player myself ( 800+ hours played ) I look forward to the AL change very much. Though I worked hard to get the 90 AL cards I have and level them up to 50, I wouldn't mind a complete reset. The well system was not intended to be abused as hard as it was... people were logging out inside the well to reset their timer and getting 9 million valr.... They used an exploit to get all their cards, so it wont be too much of a shame when their cards/valr is reset. I understand it will hit those that are farming for legacies right now, however the number of people that will be effected is very small when you look forward to all the potential new players.  That being said... they may still give out card packs or something in compensation as they said before... however I wont be upset at all if all my legacies are reset.

WHAT I LOOK FORWARD TO:
The new AL system isn't just a rework of ALs... its also a lot of more class/subclass options. This will be super fun to explore. Also... Legacies were something you really had to work at... then people just found exploits and everyone had the Best in Slot ALs in no time. I hope it will be hard to get all the legacies this time around and will thoroughly enjoy spending a bunch of time grinding back up to best in slot.

Idea: So a big "problem" I see is that this game rocks the concept of "die to get stronger"... however there are 2 problems I see that dont make this statement very viable.
1) Unless you went into the WELL to die, then you get basically no valr... I would recommend getting far more valr for deaths out in the main land, while still making the WELL the main "grinding method" to getting valr the fastest. But really... I could spend 20 hours on a character getting him tons of gear and then die for like... 2k valr. OR I could spend 30-60 minutes and get 250k valr via the WELL. It seems a bit off. If you accidentally die out in the main land you do NOT get stronger... you just wasted a bunch of time.

2) This point is a little bit of an echo of point #1, however, this also talks about relics. When you die with thousands of relics, you gain nothing. Infact you just lose like 5 days worth of relic farming. Instead, perhaps the # of relics you lost could be translated into an amount of valr gain. I wont talk too much about it because I think relics deserve their own post which I will go write u now, typos included. :)

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

I disagree with most of the original post. 

Rules are made to be broken, warnings are made to be ignored.
 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

You say everyone plays harb and changing would be a a terrible idea... Well the reason everyone plays him is because of how strong he is.

Balance/reworks are not synonymous. 
 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

Also... the "relic swap to a different character" seems a bit cheesy.
Then everyone will just swap into the "strongest class" without much work/effort.

Alternative would be to create a single-use class change item for major reworks.
If they are just swapping to the 'new strongest class' then is the game even more balanced?
If someone plays a character for 100+ hours only to have it reworked and all their progress is locked to the new reworked class they don't like, then it really doesn't matter what you or anyone else thinks is cheesy. The harb damage could be shredded down to nothing to a point that it is considered the weakest class and people would still play it.
Games have 'NoSkill' classes for a reason. It's not an accident. This isn't entirely rocket science.
 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

The AL change is a HUGE change that will change the feel of the game and give it more depth. 

I have seen nothing to indicate it will give the game more depth, so maybe you have more info than me?
Like I said, I have very little info about it, but other than that I actually know what I'm talking about.
If the current AL system was fine-tuned for balance and possibility space it would have a lot of depth.
I have no reason to believe that a rework is going to be balanced, even if I would like it to be.
Combinatorial possibility space is limited by balance = balance brings depth.
 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

 As of now, there arent many people actively playing the game. 

For reasons.
If the AL rework is moving in the direction of the Rogue Legacy Loop instead of RNGesus Well Grind then it might eliminate one reason.
If new players stop dying only to see they earned 0 Valr it might eliminate another reason.

 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

So WHY NOT change it for the better? Even if it hurts the progress of those that are playing, ( a hundred ish? ) It will benefit those that come in the future ( thousands? ).

I like to assume the worst when people say they are reworking something. I have not been wrong yet. Reworks generate hype, but by nature they imply the developers didn't know what they were doing in the first place.. so unless they have learned a lot from the mistakes (I'm not entirely sure they have based on the new manually accepted challenges, well changes, etc.), then it's probably a side-grade. I have no reason to expect it is strictly better than what we have now, and no reason to assume by default they are aware of the pitfalls they're walking into. You say hundreds now? Thousands ahead? They have already had like 50,000 people join, if not more. The hype surrounding the rework will drag a ton of dormant players back into the game, but if their sandcastle got kicked over in the process it'll be the last straw for them.

That type of scenario results in a negative review far more frequently than just about anything else, which greatly diminishes those future hoards of people you're expecting, even if advertising attempts to make up the difference it will be advertising a negatively reviewed game and cost 3x more.
So, you know the drill. [insert warning]
 

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

As an SB player myself ( 800+ hours played ) I look forward to the AL change very much. Though I worked hard to get the 90 AL cards I have and level them up to 50, I wouldn't mind a complete reset. The well system was not intended to be abused as hard as it was... people were logging out inside the well to reset their timer and getting 9 million valr.... 

I am not affected by people that got to skip the tedious well grind.
(Unless they are able to use the cards for 10x longer than me)
I just spent 10mil+ Valr to get a single card.
It took like 40 hours of tedious nonsense.
I am not alone in doing this recently.
I explained why I am not alone.
...

So I guess you could say I disagree with most of your disagreements.
However, I can agree to most of this:

16 hours ago, Kelphaz said:

So a big problem I see is that this game rocks the concept of "die to get stronger"... except that's BS
You can die after playing for 999 hours and get 2000 Valr (if you remember to manually accept challenge rewards)
You can die and lose a maxed out level12 T10 set and get 11 Valr per item.
You can die and lose 50000 relics and get nothing.
You can suicide bomb the well wearing trash armor and get 250k.
It still takes forever to get anything at 250k/hour because it's a game of dice.
Actually playing the game to earn Valr would be far superior to an unfinished well.

(reworded that a bit... but yea)

Edited by paradoxofchoice

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Posted (edited)

@paradoxofchoice When you quote someone, do not change or reword their text. Its putting words into their mouth and one could easily assume that was from the original poster. 

Thanks

Edited by Kelphaz
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On 3/12/2019 at 4:59 AM, Kelphaz said:

Idea: So a big "problem" I see is that this game rocks the concept of "die to get stronger"... however there are 2 problems I see that dont make this statement very viable.
1) Unless you went into the WELL to die, then you get basically no valr... I would recommend getting far more valr for deaths out in the main land, while still making the WELL the main "grinding method" to getting valr the fastest. But really... I could spend 20 hours on a character getting him tons of gear and then die for like... 2k valr. OR I could spend 30-60 minutes and get 250k valr via the WELL. It seems a bit off. If you accidentally die out in the main land you do NOT get stronger... you just wasted a bunch of time.

2) This point is a little bit of an echo of point #1, however, this also talks about relics. When you die with thousands of relics, you gain nothing. Infact you just lose like 5 days worth of relic farming. Instead, perhaps the # of relics you lost could be translated into an amount of valr gain. I wont talk too much about it because I think relics deserve their own post which I will go write u now, typos included. :)

9


 Hiya Kelphaz :D Thanks for the support, I'm really excited to see how this change improves the game and also see how it changes with community feedback. Regarding both of these points, I think they're both fair. We want the well to have a BIG benefit (otherwise, a character is dying and it doesn't feel worth it) but I agree that awarding more for characters outside of the well seems like a good idea too. The team is pretty "heads down" in development with the AL rework, since there's so much to do - but once it's out, re-examining the balance of Valr outside the well should be a lot more feasible. I'll write a ticket so it doesn't get lost.

I really like your relic solution. We've been trying to figure something out where dying with relics isn't so painful, and we've gotten a lot of good suggestions. I really like that solution and will include it as an option for the ticket above. 

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6 hours ago, hh_katherine said:


 Hiya Kelphaz :D Thanks for the support, I'm really excited to see how this change improves the game and also see how it changes with community feedback. Regarding both of these points, I think they're both fair. We want the well to have a BIG benefit (otherwise, a character is dying and it doesn't feel worth it) but I agree that awarding more for characters outside of the well seems like a good idea too. The team is pretty "heads down" in development with the AL rework, since there's so much to do - but once it's out, re-examining the balance of Valr outside the well should be a lot more feasible. I'll write a ticket so it doesn't get lost.

I really like your relic solution. We've been trying to figure something out where dying with relics isn't so painful, and we've gotten a lot of good suggestions. I really like that solution and will include it as an option for the ticket above. 

for those who doesnt need legacies it is not solution 

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On the topic of relics and a possible end game use for them: when guilds are implemented into the game, a new currency could be introduced where the amount of relics your character died with is a way to increase your guild currency.  Only a suggestion, not saying it is perfect either.  Another suggestion is that they convert into bloodstones on death. 

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23 minutes ago, Dryice101 said:

[suggestion for relics to convert into bloodstones on death]

+1 to this idea. It even fits the name 'bloodstone' as a thematic/lore style bonus. 

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That's a cool idea @Dryice101! While we probably wouldn't want to introduce a new currency, per se, we could introduce something that operates similarly - maybe something closer to a point system that guilds could use to cash in for different upgrades.

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I believe that when the AL rework gets released, every players , active or not , shall be given a 3 3-day exp booster for them to start grinding the new legacies that will be implemented.

I also suggest the rework of well such as changes in the valr cap and the difficulty of obtaining it because from what I've heard it is really hard to earn valr right now.

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